Most days prayer is a given for me too. In the ministries that I've been involved with prayer hasn't been a given though. I guess I'm so jaded by that, that I'm afraid of making this process too logical. Too one dimentional. [Isn't that a dysfunction we've seen in the modern church?] I've had lots of people in ministry, pastors included, look me in the eye and say "I'll pray about that", as they sprint on to the next thing. I'm tired of "Thank you Lord for this food amen", before we enter into God's work, whatever that may be at the time. So forgive me for putting you guys into that group of people. That's my automatic response to the mention of prayer. So is that a modern thing? Not much pray in ministry in mean. Is that when things are just too out of balance? Or is that just a hardened heart thing? Is prayer hard for some moderns to do because there are no "results?" Nothing tangible. I know it's not all moderns, but the lack of a vibrant prayer life seems to be a trend to me. Again, I'm jaded and I've only seen what I've seen. So if you guys are looking in my eyes and telling that you are spending time in prayer about this and other things in general, I'm ok with that. Sorry if I automatically pigeon-holed you guys too. I just want to do this the best we can. God's church is on the line.

ChOG Postmodern Thinktank
i hear what you're saying on the prayer issue. but here's a look @ it from where i am.
i already am praying over this issue; lots. i think the rest of us are doing that as well because we're walking through this stuff on a daily basis. the thing that i come to the think tank for is conversation on what i'm seeing, praying over, experiencing, etc.
don't get it wrong, prayer should be a major part of what we're doing.
i'm not sure what i'm trying to say here, but i want most of all to conversate & process. prayer is a given for me, i need someone to walk through this mess called post modernism with someone who is willing to wrestle with me [no tights please].
everything is so squishy and messy, not easily measured and taken stock of.

I thought of something. Its 1845. A young brave went to the big of Chicago to see the world. He returns to his tribe and his wise cheif to tell them what he saw. For his whole life the brave had heard the cheif say "The white man is coming. More and more than we can count. And he is bringing his world and ways with him." It's try cheif, there is a sea of white men. They have iron horses that take them place to place. They have stores for everything: clothes, food, tools, guns, jewelry. The city is never asleep. After a period of silence the cheif says "You must teach me how to speak better english. Tell me how to get along with the white man. How should the tribe change enough to function in this spreading culture? Wow, what a wise cheif. Look around you. How can that cheif, that person of great power and influence impact the church? If God has placed them there, isn't it His timing? I see some wise Cheifs out there! Praise the Lord! I guess you do know what your doing God!

Mike and I have found that we I like to speak to each other in parables. Something about painting a picture that one can understand. We both wonder, if they work so well, why am I not using them all the time. If they were good enough for Jesus, shouldn't I take more time to paint an understandible picture for my students?

[Am I the "powers that be"? Wow that was better than making kids take laps at soccer practice]

Nate, I hear you. "Are they ministry material? Are they ready? Well, your the pastor." I hear crap like that all the time. Jesus got his guys doing ministry with him. They watched, learned and were partners. Jesus sent them out on there own, and when they came back he fed thousands of people. DANG THAT'S LAB! So how do you people do that? Or how better can we get people involved with the process of ministry? I know on a weekly or daily basis I go about planning and "training"[if you can call it that.], in a very modern way. It looks like a line not a mind map. Presently I don't know how to get people to buy into that process. I'm not sure I could say "hey lets meet Tuesday and plan Sunday Night [Youth]." If ministry is truly meant for the whole church to do...How do we get there? Nate we've talked about creative process, but I guess I'd like to see it. I guess what I'm saying is I'd like to see the guts of a emergent ministry. I want to take a walk on that road.

ChOG Postmodern Thinktank
because of extreme pressures from the the powers that be i am making an 'official' post...enjoy it!!
just had a very interesting conversation...
there was a guy [we'll call him bob] just in my office talking to me about someone that was interested in joining the youth staff. bob was telling me that this guy [we'll call him jim] has a tendancy to over commit and maybe even jump in too quickly. the whole tenor of bob's'caution' was that i would be careful not to over involve this jim. now, to be fair, i understand the caution. the church has a history of 20% of people doing 80% of work. but there was something else to what was being said. can't quite put my finger on it.
anyway, it made me think of some things related to leadership and how we do church better. what i said to bob were a couple of things.

1st - i'd rather have jim and his passion for the youth than the host of pew sitters we seem to have every sunday. we've got lots of people who say 'i don't have the right training. i need to read another book go through another study or be mentored for another year before i do anything.' we've got more training going on than there are steroids in baseball. ok, so the steroid thing hasn't been proven just yet.
question: how much training did the disciples actually have before they were in the market preaching and teaching. the evidence of scripture says they didn't have much. and yet, we're training people like crazy like that's the thing that Jesus called us to do.

2nd - there seems to be a fear of the uncontrollable. jim's passion and willingness to get involved is interesting. jim had a real desire to begin a mens group but the timing isn't working for that to happen. so instead of demanding that the mens group get started or pouting that the staff isn't supporting him in the effort [how am i doin'?] he's simply shifted his passion. jim love students and spends time with them regularly, so working with the youth at the church didn't seem like a stretch to him.
for the modern mind set this is scarry. for bob, jim seems to just be jumping on the closest band wagon [kind of like what's happening with me and villinova in the tournament - my bracket's a mess]. the modern world thrived on the measurables and the controlled environment. and because of those controllables unbelivable progress has been made in science and industry. and i appreciate those advances everyday. but i'm not sure that those kind of controllables and certainties work real well with people.

on the other end of this is that i appreciate bob's willingness to come and talk to me. for too long i have been on the outside of conversations like this in others willingness to talk around me. not in gossip, but unwilling to have face time and work through difficult issues.

part of the job of leadership, to improve how we do church, lies in how we mentor and communicate with those that have a passion for ministry. not just equipping them with resources, but giving them the face time they need to do the ministry well, and reminding them not to neglect their families at the same time. anyone else struggle with that?!?!

Prayer Tim? I was waiting to see who, or what the Thinktank was going to look like before I brought it up. Talking and taking tours of the new world together are great! Please don't get me wrong on that, there has been so much discovery for me that way. I think there needs to be as much prayer as talking. We should at least split the time we have together with God don't you think. If we are making this engaging journey with God, shouldn't we atcutally engage Him?

So who can we invite into this discussion? I'm thinking power. You guys understand people. You also understand if you really want change, you influence those that hold power. So who do we know with power? Grassroots is important! We need to be changing our spheres, but who has greater sphere's that you know? Or are we even there? Do we need some sort of pitch first? Do we need to living more emergently ourselves before we cash in some chips? The greatest pitch may be living, vibrant, emergent ministries. What do you guys think?

My self, Tim and Mrs. Tim, Tim and Mrs. Tim, the Wied and family went to Westwinds tonight. A few things jumped out at me. Cool building, just walking down the hall envoked creativity, I didn't even go in any the offices, which looked tight! The actual service wasn't anything alien, like I think some of us thought it might be. Tim Secord [How you guys feel about full names?] and I were talking about about the product itself isn't that revolutionary, it's the process that got them there. I would like to talk to them about that process...I think I will. Sound's like it's time to schedule another lunch.
We talked to someone after the service, which they call Fusion. [I think his name was Randy too] Randy said that he would be willing to help if he could. Dang, yeah, you can help! This whole thing is a journey right? God is constantly "upgrading" us if we're engaging him, right? So in life were never there. So do we live that way? Do we think that way? Ummm, I try to. I think to some exstent I do. Maybe that's why I get tension in minstry often. I change the way I do things all the time. But isn't that the point? Isn't that realality anyway? Our cells are constantly dieing. So really, we are never the same very long, even in our body. So isn't our soul the same? Isn't our mind the same? Always adding, improving. So what I'm saying is, God always has something new for us. If we encounter him he can inspire us to create. That's what I saw tonight. People inspired and openly, freely expressing that creativeity. It was right down to the pollished stainless steel coffee bar. I'm going to bed now. It's become a work day as I've written this.

This is Randy 

There has been tons of conversations about this within my circle of people. My hope is that the circle will expand. I'm not sure how to handle all of this, but I am sure I will learn as we go. I'm trying to migrate. So in this first post, I will include notes from the discussions that we had as a "thinktank" and we'll go from there...

...Notes from the ChOG Postmodern Thinktank January 4, 2005

Mike, Steve, Dave, Ken, and Randy.

There was no order, or agenda in this meeting. We just went for it and this is what came of it…

Things are changing. Harvey Carey said it used to be cool to be pizza and pop youth pastor. If you still are, shame on you. Let’s be different. “Youth Group Leaders”…no more.

Cars & Trees: Cars are made for one purpose. Only can be driven. It can be repaired, but it is nothing else than a car. It’s like the church is trying to nail ’57 Chevy parts to a tree.

At 14years old 9% of people decide to follow Christ. It goes down 50% each after that. Why are they leaving the church?

Steve’s Grandma’s life was about God and God was life, and church was a big part of it. Now life is about Church and Church is life, and God is sometimes in it.

The church has idea arthritis/ analysis paralysis.

Learning now has to happen with, or through experience. Spiritual experience.

The Grand analogy we went with: The Upper Peninsula and the Lower Peninsula of Michigan. We must be guides to the U.P. We need to be missionaries to both modern and postmodern cultures. Both Trolls and Yoopers. You hear stories about the northland. That it’s a place of backward woodsmen and Eskimos. “Is this the world famous Sody dear camp?” [Escanaba In Da Moonlight]. It’s not all weird. Steve discovered on a mission trip to Escanaba that there was in fact western civilization there. Wal-Mart, movies, restaurants. The people spoke English. It’s not all different or Martian. Ken said that he has heard stories about the great hunting and fishing. So he’s visited, but not interested in living there. But every time he goes he likes it more. So how can we get people to cross? Randy thinks it’s ok that not everyone crosses. But wants to see us at a place that being a Yooper and a Troll is ok for both sides. So what percentage of the church should cross? Most, more than not? Yes.

...Postmodern Thinktank February 21, 2005

Present: [I am including this, so that if someone who wasn’t there has some questions they can contact one of us that was there. If this is too Modern then I won’t do this again.] Dave, Ken, Mike, Nate, Tim and Randy

Randy and Mike started out with a thought from a conversation the day before the meeting. Most of us in this room, except Ken are sitting on the middle of the Mackinac Bridge, wondering where to go next. We know that we don’t like modernism in the church, but we don’t know totally what postmodernism looks like either, or more importantly how to live it out. We are more apt to recognized it when we see it.

We worked a lot on finding the language we need to express what we are seeing. Because we may say something that a modern would say, but mean two totally different things. This may require moderns and postmoderns to go see and experience the same things, then talk about it.

Some suggested books on postmodernism or new things happening in church: The Present Future by Reggie McNeil, The End of the World as We Know it by Schmitt, Emergent Worship by Dan Kimball, Emergent Culture by Dan Kimball, Postmodern Youth Ministry by Tony Jones, Anything by Brian McClearn, Relevant Books from Relevant Media Group, find some of these titles in the YS Emergent section at Christian bookstore.

Ethos was mentioned…the experience of a place or a community. This is something that may be indefinable, at least a blanket definition. As many cities and communities in the U.P. as there are, there are that many different kinds of examples of postmodernism. Len Sweet suggests in his book “Becoming Epic” that there are four elements that are in Ethos: Experiential, Participatory, Imagery, and Connective. One may dominate a given lesson, event, etc. or they may all be employed. So if you are looking for some teaching or event helps, there you go. Throw some of those things in there this Sunday or Wednesday!

Is a problem that postmoderns have with the modern church a value discrepancy or the expression of those values? Certainly postmoderns will not share all the values of moderns and vice versa, but there is a definite difference in the expression. Dave brought up the fact that one of his church’s core values is excellence. Who would argue that we should not give God our best shot, for his glory? But he sees the expression of the value as a crisp Sunday service, suits and ties, and “Pew Buddies.” Tim interjected that in many ways, if not all, the postmodern churches are out shining modern churches on all ways to be excellent. Why? Because those involved are connected to each other, and to God, and the church is seeing that connectedness being lived out. Many times the worship time is a shared planning experience. They lock themselves in a room and come out with lots of creative ideas.

Another help in defining… “BC” or “AC”? Was a person born Before Computers or After Computers. There are also immigrants or natives. To bring it back to the opening thought, we are trying to immigrate to the UP. It was decided that we defiantly need a “native” of the new world to join our plight. We have Ken who is a modern, willing to learn and discuss. We need a Upper, eh? So then with that thought, it doesn’t have to do with age necessarily.


Motivation?
The church is headed for death in 20 years. The world changes much more rapidly now than it has since the first 7 days, we, the church have to adapt quickly. We can no longer be behind the times, we have to be in the future, because the present is disappearing. I wonder if some of that feverish pace will slow, so that we can truly experience “the now?” That remains to be seen. Pick the age of your youngest modern. Randy said he has some moderns in the youth ministry. But will they migrate to the UP once they go to college or move out? That also remains to be seen.

Motivation for Randy is calling from God. God has told him to help the church transition 3 years ago and he has been waiting for actions to take. Thus, we are conversing. How’s this one for ya: this discussion or discussions like this are a tour or a trip to discover the UP. It’s a safari to see the where the wild things live.

Tim expressed some hardships about “coming out” as a postmodern. Jeans at church, living some postmodern values in ministry. He gets what sounds like severe flak every Sunday. He is discouraged by this, duh!?

Tim and Nate talked about that it’s difficult to lead from the middle. From where we are in ministry. Unless the people in authority are willing to change, or let us change the way that we do ministry, nothing will happen. But Ken interjected that we ARE having an impact. We ARE making a difference in the transition. Randy then told a story about how his professor of Philosophy at Anderson, Willard Reed, makes everyone apologize for missing class. No excuses, just this statement: “I apologize for missing class, and depriving you of my contribution. “But Reed, what if my wife and two kids died!?” “Apologize then, sit down and shut up Johnston” That is where Reed references the “Theory of The Butterfly Effect.” Just by someone sleeping in class they make an impact on the class, thus changing the class immeasurably. [So shut up and keep doing what we’re doing ‘cause we are making and impact on the church.]

We will be throwing out dates to go to Westwinds Church in Jackson.
www.westwinds.org Check it out.