Interesting?

Frightening is the word I would use. These people seem to be more interested in developing a cult than a church. Their main goal seems to be creating a "community" where Christ is defined by the whims of those involved. That by definition is a cult.

By their definition the Church of Satan is a Christian "community" because they have a definition of Jesus, defined by "what Christ means to them."

What I really find interesting is how 2000 years of Christians are suddenly wrong, but the modern non-Christian can define him!?

Sound ridiculous to you? It does to me.

What the "Church" on the Edge needs to realize is that Jesus did not commission us to go create churches. We are not dedicated to creating communities or groups or relationships. We are not supposed to be committed to developing society, groups, or even ourselves. And we are not supposed be becoming "more fully human." We were sent out by Jesus to make disciples, and not just disciples to anything. We were sent to make disciples of Christ. If a church develops because of that disciple making, so be it, but the goal is not to make a church.

Maybe that is what is wrong with the modern church? They started making churches and forgot to make disciples.

Church on the Edge is doomed to fail. They will never create a church, and unless they change their goal they will never lead anyone to Jesus either. They may create a large group of people, and the world might even say they were successful, but Biblically and spiritually, they will fail.

Scary stuff Randy.

I want to post a comment on here, but things have been really busy the last few days. I will eventually. I have a retreat this weekend, so once that's by I'll jump back in.

a few questions:
so what do you call what you're trying to create on Sunday morning, or when you meet with students? here's merriam-webster.com's def of community: "a unified body of individuals." Is that not what we're trying to do? Faith in Jesus together? Isn't that what Jesus and the Apostles had?

so what do you see in the different types of groups/environments/communities they are trying to create? A cult? On that page I don't see that at all. I see some steps of faith development. Like on a post before, they have a place to belong, and find love/caring first, so they can hear about Jesus. If someone that they think doesn't know them they won't listen. I don't know about you, but the people that I've met in the last 10 years don't care if I have correct theology, or if I can tell them the Romans Road, they want to know if I'll listen. Do I care about them, and want to hear what they have to say? Isn't listening one of the most basic forms of showing love? It's a basic form of acceptance. Everyone that I know wants to be accepted. Thus the need for community. How does one go and make disciples without relationships?

So, does the involvement of the "Frontier Youth Trust, Church Missionary Society, the Anglican Diocese of Exeter, and local churches" make this based on whims? I understand that we must be careful that we don't accept what we like about the God, and discard what we don't like. But the involvement of the Anglican church tells me that there is a definite standard of orthodoxy involved with the process.

I agree, it seems to me that the church is not making disciples. It seems that we're just after converts. Say the prayer, "live holy," and your good, rather than living together a life like Jesus did. Actually studying his life, and attitudes and posture towards people. A life lived by living Truth[Jesus], not simply subscribing to propositional truth, or statements of faith.

hmm, maybe you know something I don't about the culture in the UK. I don't know the best way to reach youth for Jesus in the south of England. And I don't know if its "doomed to fail" or not. I hope not. I hope that those youth can see what following Jesus is all about. I hope that they can learn to apply scripture to their lives.

not to try to reach unreached culture/people, that would be scary to me.

This may be lengthy because you have asked several questions of me which require some explanation. I apologize.

First, when I meet with my youth I am not trying to create community. Community may be a biproduct of what I am doing, but it is not my goal. That goal is ultimately self-defeating because young people do not stay connected after high school, i.e. the community becomes a non-community. Why would I build something that only gets demolished every May or June? It is a vain goal with no lasting value. I'm not into platitudes, and I don't give my young people Biblical placebos.

My goal is to make disciples of Jesus. I don't mask him with mystical sounding names like "Truth" (what is that!? It sounds more like eastern mysticism than Christianity). My goal is to give them something worth dying for - a faith that is worth losing your life to keep. That is only found in Jesus - blatant, loud, unabashed, and bold faith in Jesus Christ. I don't hide it; I don't couch it in mystery. I bring it - straight and undiluted. I'm trying to make these young people into a group of believers the likes of which the world has not seen in 2000 years. That is my goal.

Settling for a community is trite in comparison of what I am trying to do.

Ok, that's question #1.

Question #2:

Doing I see the Church on the Edge building a cult? No, probably not that debilitating mentally, but I do see them building something that is equally spiritually crippling. They are building exactly what you describe - groups, environments, and communities. Spiritually, that is worthless. If you actually read their site, you will realize that they don't intend to introduce these people to Jesus at all. In fact, the implication is that they intend to avoid Jesus so they can keep their "groups, communities, and environments" together. What they are building is a social club.

You are correct that building a relationship with people is more important at first than just preaching to people, but eventually, you must bring them into confrontation with who Christ is. Also, from the very first you must put forth Christ. To make people believe they belong to a group that is devoid of Christianity is just lying to them, to yourself, and to Jesus. The community they end up with just leads them to hell. They belong, but they lose their life? What good is that? People need more than just to belong.

That is what makes these people's "work" worthless. It never intends to introduce them to Jesus. Sure, they claim that they plan to introduce the ideas of Jesus, but that is not the same thing. Just because you have truth does not mean that you have Jesus. Knowledge of truth and even believing in truth is laudable, but that is not the same as walking in the truth.

Question #3:

This group's involvement with FYT & CMS seem to give them credibility, but it is hardly a bonafide endorsement of their veiwpoints. In fact, CMS doesn't even mention their involvement with the Church on the Edge in the CMS website (at least not that I could find), so while Church on the Edge claims affiliation, CMS does not. FYT does however, but their connection seems like one of similar target groups rather than similar ideology. Add to this the fact that the Church on the Edge claims affiliation with one of the most liberal and non-Christian church groups in history - the Anglican Diocese of Exeter - and the credibility of the Church on the Edge is nearly destroyed. Just what truth do they intend to bring these people to? It doesn't appear that they have any themselves. Yes, it is beginning to look more like a cult!

Question #4:

If you want my views on statements of faith, just back up a few weeks in the blog and look for the one with the 22 comments. Statements of faith are crucial to a Christian as the Bible makes very clear in Romans 10:8-10.

Question #5:

No, I probably don't know any more about winning young people to Jesus in the UK than you do; however, I don't think young people will see what following Jesus is all about without ever being introduced to Jesus (and no, a "culturally relevant expression of church" as they put it is not the same as a relationship with Jesus Christ). I do know this - the social gospel idea did not work in the 1960's - 1970's and it will not work now.

These ideas come and go like clothing styles, and frankly, I've seen most of them in my life. The only thing I know will work is to give people the truth and give it to them undiluted. Just like Jesus did. No, you may not have (and probably won't have) a big church and draw a huge salary like many pastors, especially emergent pastors, seem to aspire to, but you will actually make disciples of Jesus Christ.

Here are some questions for you:
What would you say about a pastor who took a church of 6-10,000 down to about 150 in a single day because he spoke the truth? Success or failure?

The emergent church would call that a resounding failure because he broke up the community and thousands of people no longer felt like they belonged. What do you say?